The Shared Soil team talk wildlife management in agriculture with Matt Tarr, UNH Extension's wildlife habitat specialist, and Cole LeTourneau, a New Hampshire Fish and Game Conservation Officer. They discuss New Hampshire's unique bear damage compensation program and the importance of proactive measures like fencing and habitat management to mitigate wildlife damage.
Show notes:
Integrated Pest Management Practices for Wildlife: http://universitysystemnh.sharepoint.com/:p:/r/teams/UNHCooperativeExtension/_layouts/15/Doc.aspx?sourcedoc=%7BB73E9032-9D18-4016-86C1-ABC8FD9EE52D%7D&file=2.%20NE%20Vegetable%20and%20Fruit%20Conference%202020.pptx&wdLOR=c44A8A1B9-5623-47B8-BE0F-6AEABF034025&fromShare=true&action=edit&mobileredirect=true
State Police Dispatch Line: 603-271-3361
New Hampshire Operation Game Thief: www.nhogt.org or 1-800-344-4462
NH Fish and Game: http://www.wildlife.nh.gov/
USDA Wildlife Services: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife-services or 603-223-6832
Extension directory of licensed foresters: nhwoods.org
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Cole LeTourneau, a New Hampshire Fish and Game Conservation Officer and Matt Tarr, UNH Extension's wildlife habitat specialist
Transcript
Kendall Kunelius 0:00
Welcome to this episode of Shared Soil, a podcast dedicated to creating community, honoring challenges and encouraging personal and professional growth for all people in agriculture. My name is Kendall Kunelius. I'm a field specialist for agricultural business management, and I am an Extension Assistant Professor for UNH College of Life Sciences and Agriculture,
Rebecca Dube 0:29
And I'm Rebecca Dube, providing technology and administrative support to the workers of Extension.
Kendall Kunelius 0:34
So it's spring, and as we're moving into these next few months, it's often a time that farmers begin to plant and establish their crops, enterprises for the year that includes things like veggie starts, ordering chicks, planting corn, pumpkins for fall, harvest - all that good stuff. And while they're thinking about making sure these enterprises have nutrients and feed necessary to grow, farmers also have to think about protecting those growing crops from predation or damage from wildlife.
Rebecca Dube 1:01
True, true. And this is a topic that many farmers have asked our staff about and our advisory council members, some of whom are farmers themselves, have had to deal with. While Extension folks are very knowledgeable about production, we find that there's two sides to this issue. The first is the educational side, the information that the farmer needs to know to best deal with that wildlife, and the second is the enforcement side, or the laws and regulations regarding interactions with wildlife.
Kendall Kunelius 1:28
That's why we've reached out to our guests today to help us understand from a holistic perspective what it means for farmers to be working with wildlife.
Rebecca Dube 1:37
Our two guests today are Matt Tarr, Extension State Specialist in wildlife habitat, and conservation officer Cole LeTourneau, who will be giving us key insight on the law enforcement side of our questions. Matt, let's start with you. Can you give us an introduction to yourself and your work?
Matt Tarr 1:54
Sure, it's great to join you all today. Again, my name is Matt Tarr. I work for UNH Cooperative Extension as our State Wildlife Habitat Specialist. I work in close cooperation with the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department and with our team of natural resource professionals at Cooperative Extension to help private landowners and communities who are interested in working with their land to usually to enhance habitat for a variety of wildlife species. And so I help folks that have as little as less than an acre to tens of thousands of acres, and everywhere in between, so from your backyard to the woods and to into farmland as well.
Kendall Kunelius 2:34
Yeah, so that's the Extension side of this particular episode, and I'm really excited to ask our next guest, Cole, to introduce himself. Because Cole, you're somebody- we haven't had someone like you on our podcast before. So please tell us who you are, what you do, and what your role is in terms of law enforcement and how that includes wildlife.
Cole LeTourneau 2:54
Yeah, absolutely, and thank you guys for having me. I'm a Conservation Officer with New Hampshire Fish and Game. I've been with Fish and Game now for going on six years in May, so it's coming right up. A little history for me. I used to cover the Manchester patrol, and I've recently moved out to the sea coast. There's actually quite a bit of agriculture down on the sea coast, believe it or not! So, you know, this is actually, it's pretty good, and it gave me an opportunity to kind of review some things I don't get to look at a whole lot. My job in general - I don't know how much your listeners maybe know about what we do, so I imagine they have maybe some clue. But we enforce all the fish and wildlife regulations in the state to include inland fisheries, so your river, streams, ponds and the sea coast. Obviously we have the ocean, so we have the added responsibility of enforcing the commercial fisheries down there as well. Another big part of my job is working with landowners in order to mitigate wildlife issues, nuisance wildlife, sick, injured wildlife. And I'm the immediate contact person when it comes to wildlife damage, in the sense that a lot of times, I'm the person who fields the call and I fill out the paperwork and submit it to headquarters saying, hey, this, got this call for a request. So in general, that's what we do. There's a whole lot more that I could get into, but I could talk for an hour and a half about it.
Kendall Kunelius 4:15
I think that's something we come upon often in this podcast, as a guest brings up a topic, and we're like, Oh, we got to put a pin in that, because that could be a whole other episode. Yeah. So to prepare for this episode, speaking of, I called around to my colleagues. I sent an email to my colleagues, and I said, "What have you heard from farmers, specifically about their questions or their interactions with wildlife on their farms?" And Matt, I think you mentioned something really important when you said it: sometimes land is like an acre, and that's up to 1000s of acres, right? So farms in New Hampshire, we tend to think of them, well if you think of commercial ag, smaller, right? Because we're not talking about 10,000 acre crop farms out in the Midwest. We're sometimes talking about farms that are 10 acres but are considered dollar-volume wise, to be like a mid-sized farm. Much of what our farmers have to do to be competitive in this market is to economize and use their land in the most effective way possible. So that means that when we're approaching that from a wildlife management or interaction standpoint, we really have to think about the fact that those farmers are depending on that acreage, and there may not be another option for them, or they may have limited options in terms of, if they have a crop that only grows on this part of their land, they just may have to manage around that and a little bit more of a intentional way that some other farmers do. So. Rebecca, do you want to get us started off with our very first question, which comes from Hillsborough County, actually?
Rebecca Dube 5:44
So this one, as she said, is from Hillsborough County. A farmer is growing corn to be sold as corn stalks for fall decoration. Bears have damaged a significant portion of this crop, leading to a loss of income. What are the farmer's options in this case? Can you clarify bear versus other wildlife damage, as New Hampshire is one of the few, if only, states regionally, that pays out on bear damage? I'll put that out to either one of you who could best answer that.
Cole LeTourneau 6:13
I can start by talking about it and open it up and just provide some - a little bit of the legal information on it. So bear damage in New Hampshire, wildlife depredation and stuff like that. New Hampshire is actually, we are the only state in the northeast, at least, that pays out for bear damage. We have the, probably one of the best liberal depredation and bear damage programs in the Northeast. So when we look at bear damage and payouts and stuff like that, there's some fine details that farms need to meet in order to qualify for those. What we're not talking about is our backyard farmers who are not looking to do anything other than use their produce in their kitchen. What we're talking about is husbandry and sale, and that husbandry and sale needs to at least be $1,000. And when we're talking about payouts, they need to at least suffer a loss of $250 of current wholesale value. We do have some other laws in the state that help protect our backyard growers. But really, I think, and what we should really be focusing on today, given the topic, is, I think, those commercial growers, and the people who are going to be meeting those qualifications. Commercial growers, they're going to need to be at least sales of $1,000 in order to be eligible. If you have bear damage where you need to be, you have to report that within 30 days to Fish and Game. And once we receive that, there's this whole administrative process that I could get into. I don't think that it's really super pertinent, and I think there's probably better people to have that conversation with at our headquarters in Concord if your viewers are interested in learning a little bit more about that process or just simply not involved with it. Inspection would take place after that report to determine specifically whether or not that damage is from a bear. So essentially we come out, we look for tracks, claw marks, stuff like that. And then based on the findings of that inspection, we can issue out payments. We have a whole host of other stuff that can be done as well that we can get into. The biggest thing with that is we will also have some other requirements, and those other requirements are going to be for mitigation measures for future damage issues.Because we don't want this to be a recurring issue where the farmer is just simply relying on the state to be paying them out every year for their losses, right? We really need one to be taking the steps in order to prevent that from happening. They are providing habitat and food for these individual bears or deer or whatever it is that we happen to be talking about with that farmer. So, you know, we may say, hey, look, we're going to give you this, but as part of that, we need fencing. We may provide noise makers. We're going to say you need to remove other food sources, like your trash and this, that and the other thing in order to help mitigate bear issues. We may say, hey, you need to - we're going to bring some trained hounds out, and we're going to haze the bears with those; try to run them off and make them a little more uncomfortable about being in that particular area around the farm. And we may say, hey, look, bear season's coming right up around the corner. Management practices all across the United States, we use the North American Model ofConservation. North American Model of Conservation is the most successful conservation model on the entire planet. It has successfully brought back tons and tons of wildlife, even going back to our colonial times. In colonial America we had game laws, even talking about specifically long hunters, who would go out and hunt for white-tailed deer and come back with tons and tons of pelts for sale. They made it either illegal to do so, or you needed to own so much land, or this that, or the other thing to do that. During that time, we well over-hunted the deer populations, but since then, we've brought those back to even maybe before colonial time populations. So in trying to utilize a North American Model of Conservation, we may say, hey, we use this tool to manage our bear populations. So let's help you by removing these bears, and let's continue to use our management practices. And let's remove some of these bears from the population to have a better, healthier group and remove some issues.
Kendall Kunelius 10:27
So I want to ask this question to you, and then Matt, I'm going to you, because I think we just found a great segue into understanding, the habitat, the conservation, and getting more into that. But Cole, you mentioned in the beginning of your answer a term, "depredation". Could you give us a definition for that, and how - We hear that term and people will say, oh, a depredation permit, but what does that actually look like? What does that mean?
Cole LeTourneau 10:51
We've got a depredation what we know I'll call is a depredation program. That depredation program is kind of two things. So as a general definition of depredation, what that is is removing nuisance wildlife or problem wildlife in order to prevent wildlife damage from occurring on commercial farms and stuff like that. So essentially, what it is, is we would issue permits. Those permits would be based on species, number, sex of an animal, and the farmers would be allowed to either themselves or through a licensed, properly licensed agent (another hunter that they happen to know that has a hunting license in New Hampshire) to take that specific wildlife that's issued on their permit in order to help mitigate issues surrounding maybe - A lot of it, what we give out a lot of is like deer depredation permits. That seems to be the most popular one. Deer just happen to cause a lot of issues. We have a lot of apple farms and stuff like that. So usually bears, deer are the ones that are giving them the most issues. So they get a lot of depredation permits. There's a whole bunch of other stuff that we can kind of get into with that, I think maybe a little later. But just as for the general definition, we have depredation permits and pre-damage permits, which are both kind of the same thing, but slightly different.
Kendall Kunelius 12:12
Okay, so Matt, moving over to you to the habitat piece. That makes me think, if we are controlling one wildlife species, what wildlife species might then move in, because we've removed a predator, we've removed a piece of that food chain, right? Or that wildlife ecosystem has then shifted. And I think Cole, you made a great point, saying, farmers, by nature of what we're doing with agriculture, we're providing habitat that maybe we don't recognize. And Matt, you and I have worked together on a farm consult where actually that farmer or the landowner wanted to increase wildlife habitat and wanted wildlife to be there. So I don't know if you want to just take all that thought process and put it together and give us a little perspective on understanding both sides of the coin between managing the species, but also help farmers understand, if you're removing a species, what else might come in to damage those crops?
Matt Tarr 13:01
Well, that's a really easy question, right?
Kendall Kunelius 13:04
Oh, good! I was like, Oh no, am I asking too much here?
Matt Tarr 13:08
I'm being facetious. That was a lot! There was a lot in that question. So I'll try to break it down. Okay, so I guess I'll try to answer the last part of your question, which was, if you remove one species, what's going to come in? A lot of this is very predictable. And so again, as a lot of the farm crops that we're putting out there, you know, we're growing them for our food, but they're food, okay? And so if you put food in the landscape, it's incredibly predictable that critters that like that food are going to respond to it, right? And so I think that it's really important when we're trying to come up with solutions for how do we minimize a conflict, to realize that the conflict comes from us trying to do something within a larger system and being surprised by the way that system naturally responds to what we're doing, right? So, if I put a package of Oreos out on my counter, despite how much of willpower - I don't want to eat those, but by the end of the day those Oreos are gone, right? And so you know, if we put a high-quality food source out into the natural environment, the critters that are there that like that to eat are going to respond to that. That's incredibly predictable, right? And so if we can do things right from the beginning to try to recognize that, to realize - And one of the great things about being in New Hampshire is that, a great thing is that we're doing this farming practice within a pretty natural environment. And because we're in this natural environment, that creates challenges to accomplishing certain agricultural goals, right? And so the conflict comes from us, that we're trying to do something in this natural system and we're expecting it to operate the way that that natural system doesn't. And so we try to take a very holistic approach, right? And so like just going out and removing a critter - Okay, that might provide a temporary solution, but guess what, if the habitats right, it's probably going be replaced by another individual of that same species at some point in the future - very predictable - or perhaps by something else, right? And so just going out there and removing, trapping, shooting our wildlife species isn't necessarily a long-term solution. So understanding the system; understanding that we're in a natural system; understanding like what is the situation that we're creating, and how are wildlife likely to respond to that? That can be very helpful for us in making really good decisions about, okay, are there things that we can do, like fencing? Can we design our fields so that we maybe minimize the chances that bears - make it really easy for bears to get into our corn. So rather than planting our corn right up to the edge of the forest where the bears can easily take one, two steps and they're in the middle of your corn field, maybe putting some distance there. What makes bears a little maybe less comfortable crossing that opening to get into the corn or providing enhanced opportunities for hunters to harvest bears before they go from the cover of the forest into the cover of the corn. Trying to think about it holistically so we can make good decisions and try to farm as economically feasibly as possible.
Rebecca Dube 16:11
Nice. This reminds me a little of what we were talking about on our last podcast episode about IPM. Yeah! It's really an integrated pest management move to try to find all of these different mechanical and holistic ways to prevent a pest, in this case, a wildlife pest, instead of having to react after the fact.
Kendall Kunelius 16:32
I actually think that that comment, Rebecca, moves us right into the next question perfectly. So we were just talking about corn, corn stalks, a vegetable crop. But from Rockingham County, we get a lot of questions about folks who have poultry. So a bear, raccoon, bobcat, predator is breaking into my chicken coop and decimating my chickens, or my meat bird flock. And I say coop, but I really mean like it could be a barn, it could be a standalone coop, a chicken tractor. Interpret it as you will. But what are my options here?
Cole LeTourneau 17:05
Yeah, so really, again, some of that is going to come down to the size that we're talking about, right? I mean, there are some large production chicken farms down that way. I know I've got a turkey farm right in Hampton. And for them, those damage control programs that we were just talking about on the last question, and in the opening, some of that may apply to them. If we're talking about the backyard people, then we start talking about being nuisance wildlife. And what are my rights to protect my chickens? That's a really easy answer. It's kind of a hard answer and the reason why is because of what our law says in relation to protecting those birds and stuff like that. A law uses the term "actual and substantial damage". Actual and substantial damage can be a lot of things to a lot of different people. Interpretation, exactly. It's an ambiguous statement to say, actual and substantial. It's easy to look at when I'm talking about bear damage on a chicken coop, right? A bear's gonna come in, they're gonna rip the doors off. You know, they're physically going to be altering your property and causing real damage to that. You have every right to protect your property from that, up to putting that bear down. Now, certainly there's parameters around that - it needs to be reported; we're going to come look at that. We're going to make sure that that was done within the parameters of the law, because we don't just want people out there killing things. It can't be that I had a bobcat in my yard last night. It took five of my chickens, and the next bobcat I see is, you know, I'm going to kill it because it's probably the same bobcat. We call that retaliatory killing. It's not in the actual process of doing that actual and substantial damage. So in those cases, it needs to be actively doing that, creating that damage. The better option in those cases is really trying to get ahead of the game. So number one, if your chickens are out and you're free ranging them, those options don't apply to you. You need to be actively, actually trying to protect your chickens. If it's in your chicken coop, good enough, you know, shoot the fox or whatever. If you have free range chickens, and it's picking them off one by one, you're not eligible under that law because you're not doing anything to try to protect those particular individuals. The better thing to be doing is putting up fencing. Have a good strong coop. And utilize, again, our system that we have in place, which is, you know, utilizing hunters, trappers and stuff like that on your property to keep populations low, limit those nuisance issues, and just overall, just not making it a place that they maybe want to be. So if you happen to see those critters in your backyard, go out, make a lot of noise, bang, pots and pans together, stuff like that. If you do continue to have those issues, though, I always tell people call USDA Wildlife Services. They're a fantastic program. They will provide you sometimes with all kinds of stuff: noise makers, fencing, a whole wide variety of things. When I get those calls in the field, that's who I tell people to call. There's not a lot that I can do for them, but that program is the people that will be able to help them.
Kendall Kunelius 20:25
Yeah, and I remember when we were soliciting these questions from our colleagues, well, I'll say our folks, who run the poultry and rabbit producers class, they did tell me that someone from Fish and Game comes to talk to the people in those classes about securing your fence, like electric fencing, all that kind of stuff. So I think it's great that you mentioned the USDA Wildlife Services. But then also for the commercial producers, I really appreciate that Fish and Game is willing to give your time to come talk to our commercial producers, or people who intend to produce on a commercial scale, to give those mitigation methods in early.
Cole LeTourneau 20:59
A big part of our job, really is, is mitigating human and wildlife interactions. We want people being out there and seeing them and enjoying them and stuff like that. But unfortunately, especially down in Rockingham County, I mean, we have, we have really removed a lot of habitat down there. We've really broken things up with a lot of main highways and big roadways and developments and stuff like that. It's becoming more and more frequent because they just don't have anywhere else to be. So they're becoming backyard wildlife because they don't have any other option. There's just not a lot of room down there anymore.
Rebecca Dube 21:35
Matt, did you have something to add to that?
Matt Tarr 21:37
I love all of that. So again, there's no one fix, right? So, you know, part of figuring this out is figuring out, what's the situation that a particular farmer is dealing with? Because every situation is different, and so what works on one site may not work on another. With regard to poultry, I think, you know, here's a great example of, like, you're putting the Oreos out, right? So if you're going to make the decision that you're going to raise poultry, and those birds are going to be outside somewhat, then you need to expect that things are going to want to eat them. And so my approach has always been, when I've been raising chickens, I'm taking on the responsibility to protect my animals, right? A bear is one thing, but many of these smaller mammals that can cause issues, like if they get into your coop, that's telling you that you need to do better job about protecting your coop. And so simply, again, simply going in and removing a fox or a raccoon that gets into the coop - if you don't fix the coop, the next fox or raccoon that comes around is going to do the same thing. There's many practices that we can take to make a more secure shelter for those animals. And again, there's challenges of scale here, right? So again, if for the backyard hobbyist, it may be relatively easy to create a secure, small coop, but for some of our larger producers that are pasture-raising chickens, those birds are exposed, and it's a little bit more challenging. I do know some larger producers here in New Hampshire that have livestock guard dogs who do a fantastic job of guarding those chickens from small mammals and even from hawks. So there's a number of different approaches that we might take, depending on what our scale is and how that poultry is being raised and what dangers it's being exposed to.
Kendall Kunelius 23:17
One of the questions I wanted to ask specifically. So I used to live in Rockingham County, and my husband and I both hunt, so I am comfortable using a firearm if I need to protect my flock. But the problem is, is that Rockingham, or, well, I should say the town we lived in, specifically, had regulations about what types of firearms I could or couldn't fire based on who else was around, right? Or how close all the other houses were around. So maybe the question I want to be asking here is, if you are someone who is comfortable using a firearm, can you give us some general idea of where people could go to make sure that they're using an appropriate firearm? Or if they need training for that, for that type of protection, for their flock or their crop or whatever, where would they go to figure that out? Because I just want to make sure that we're saying, we're not just saying, like, oh, you know, if it's an appropriate course of action, shoot the animal, but knowing that there's other context that goes along with that as well.
Cole LeTourneau 24:13
Yeah, we can get real deep on that, but I'll try to be as clear and not get too in the weeds with it as I can. As far as discharging a firearm, you can discharge a firearm on your own property, as long as you are not within a compact zone, and it doesn't matter whether you are standing five feet off of your neighbor's house, as long as you're standing on your property, that's okay. I'm not saying that that's necessarily the right thing to do. The law allows for a lot of things that are not necessarily ethical or smart, but it's, you know, it's just the way the law is written. So there's a few different ways that we can identify a compact zone in the state of New Hampshire. One way is through the state definition, which says that there are six houses, all within 300 feet of one another. So what that means is, is so from house A to house B, they are 300 feet minus to one another. B to C, same thing, and moving down the line from there; that creates a state defined compact zone. A town or city may, through zoning ordinances, have a designated compact zone, stuff like that. Another way to find out whether you're not in a compact zone is obviously schools, hospitals, gathering places, so parks, stuff like that. And in order to discharge a firearm within those areas, you need to be 300 feet outside of that compact zone. So that's the general gist of discharging firearms. You can discharge a bow and arrow within a compact zone just fine. That's not an issue at all. You still need to be 300 feet away, if you're not on not on your own property. But other than that, you're good to go. As far as what type of firearm you might need to be required to use for any particular type of wildlife in those areas that you're talking about in Rockingham County, we have a whole list of towns that are within towns with special regulations for firearms. That is specifically for deer season and the taking of deer. So we only allow for the use of shotguns, muzzle loaders, handguns and straight-walled pistol cartridges and rifles in those areas. However, if you're hunting coyotes, or if you're going to take a coyote or whatever in that area, you're more than welcome to use a 223 long rifle. That law is - and I get a lot of questions on it - it's confusing, because people just see that, and it doesn't really explain it well in our digest that that is kind of the case. But in those particular instances where you're not hunting through depredation permits or pre-damage permits, where you are specifically required to use a specific type of firearm or bow and arrow or whatever, for whatever it is that you're hunting, or there may be some type of a law that requires you to use a special regulations town, or something like that. You can really use anything that would be ethical to take that animal for the most part. You can use a 22 for a lot of things, but, I mean, if it's getting coyote size and up, I mean, you're really talking about just hurting an animal more than anything. And again, it really is last resort. So if you find yourself in that situation, it shouldn't, hopefully, shouldn't be your go-to. I would hope that you would try everything else in the world first, before. Because we need to understand we are living with that wildlife. They're just trying to live and get along, just like the rest of us are. And we need to live happily together as best as we can. But in general, those are the rules surrounding that. It can get kind of weedy, so I'll try to leave it at that.
Matt Tarr 27:44
I guess my recommendation to folks would be killing the animal is a last resort, because it's often not - it's only a temporary fix, right? Maybe, if somebody feels that they're at the point where they need to kill an animal to minimize damage, to contact a Conservation Officer to help them assess that situation and provide them with guidance about, you know, is it necessary, and if so, how to do it safely? That would be my suggestion.
Cole LeTourneau 28:07
We do have the wildlife control operator route as well, which they do have the ability to do some live trapping. A lot of them do not, which is really kind of the only caveat with that. Because releasing wildlife is, it's difficult unless you have someone who's willing to allow you to do that, and you have permission to release it on their property, because we require that. And then, depending on the species, there's a whole host of other issues as that as well, especially bears. And I can talk about why we don't trap bears in these situations as well.
Rebecca Dube 28:36
Well I have a question that goes along with that if we're going to get into trapping. It comes from Coos County, and it's about beavers moving into their property, and this talks about the larger environmental changes that wildlife can cause. So beavers have recently moved on to my property and are flooding out my fields and/or access roads. Am I allowed to remove them? Is it legal for me to trap and relocate wildlife, for example, groundhogs? And I recognize this question, because growing up, my father is just on the backyard gardener level. I begged him not to use any methods to shoot a groundhog and to utilize trapping instead. But have heard since then that relocating an animal can also be a death sentence for that animal. So is trapping legal? Is it legal, and does it also preserve the life of the animal?
Cole LeTourneau 29:26
Yeah, so trapping is, and removal, especially of beavers, is legal when they're on your property. There are a whole host of ways that we can try to mitigate the damage with beavers. You can try to install beaver deceivers into the dams and stuff like that. The real issue with beavers is; we have the saying, "busy as a beaver". When beavers hear the sound of running water, it's a ringing in their ear. They want to plug it up. They want to stop it. That's what they do. They are habitat engineers, much like humans are. I mean, you know, you can look anywhere across any particular development, and you can see exactly how we're changing the environment, just as beavers do. It's just they're doing it with water. You can remove nuisance beavers on your own property. You can do that through a few different ways. If you're not comfortable trapping them yourself, you can call a nuisance trapper. They're licensed trappers by New Hampshire Fish and Game to come out and trouble trap during the closed season and throughout the year. You can certainly trap legally on your own property during the trapping season for them as well. If you're interested in doing any kind of recreational trapping, which can help just reduce the beaver population and maybe help with some of the damage that you're seeing if you're okay with them coexisting on your property in some sort of fashion. Because we can, we can as well, just maintain that beaver dam, right? We do allow you to remove beaver dams on your property, as long as you're not causing any kind of flooding and damage downstream of that. Because if you just rip that whole thing out, you're going to flood out in a neighborhood downstream of you and cause all kinds of problems. So there's prescribed ways that we allow for that as well. But in general, yes, you can trap, you can remove them. Live trapping a beaver is extremely difficult. It is really kind of where the issue lies. As far as live trapping them goes, they get trap smart. They almost get caught, they're not going to go back. They're going to know what that thing looks like now. And a lot of trappers can tell you about a trap-smart beaver. He's, probably, you're going to struggle to get him through another conibear if he's got nicked by one. As far as groundhogs and stuff like that, if we're just talking about live trapping, nuisance type animals, you can certainly do that. As far as relocation of them goes, you need permission from the landowner in order to release it on their property. So that's where you're going to struggle, is finding someone who's okay with that.
Kendall Kunelius 31:57
So I want to ask Matt this question, this free frame too, because we were just talking about beavers moving on to the property. And it occurs in my brain that probably anywhere a beaver would move is also probably not necessarily somewhere that's - it's probably going to be more like a wetland anyway. So should we be farming close to that habitat or those types of areas? And Matt, I'm going to yield the floor to you on that one.
Matt Tarr 32:20
Yeah, that's a great question. Kendall. So, you're right. Beaver conflicts come when we try to do something in beaver habitat, right? The conflict is that we're trying to do something in an area that's probably not appropriate for what we want to do based on how that system is going to work. So these areas where we have issues with beaver flooding or cutting, you know, cutting trees, it's incredibly predictable. Beavers don't just go out and do that randomly. They are associated with flowing water, and usually within a few hundred feet of flowing water is where they're going to do most of their cutting, and slow moving streams through flat land are the areas where they're likely to flood. And so if we are thinking about adding a new road or a new trail, or maybe where are we going to be locating fields; this is something that I can help a farmer with, come out and make an assessment, right? So we can take a look at that land. Because, again, with somebody who's familiar with the ecology of beavers, where that flooding is likely to happen is incredibly predictable. Where cutting of trees is going to be is incredibly predictable. And so if we can stay outside of those areas, we have a much greater chance of minimizing our conflicts into the future. As Cole says, there's a number of different ways to trap or shoot or get rid of problem beavers. But if the habitat's right, guess what? Every spring, there's a group of young beavers that are getting kicked out of their parents' colonies, and they move a huge distance across the landscape looking for new habitat. And so trapping and shooting beavers, again, is not a long-term solution. If the habitat's right, that area will be recolonated by beavers - 100% - you can put money down on it. And so if the idea is that we're going to go in and we're just going to keep removing these beavers, if we're hiring somebody to do that, that can be cost prohibitive eventually. And again, it's probably not a very responsible, it's maybe not a responsible approach, right? And so if we can avoid these issues from the beginning, that would be a good thing. The beaver deceivers, the water control devices that we can put into dams, those can be effective, but they don't work everywhere.
Cole LeTourneau 34:32
They have to be done exactly correctly.
Matt Tarr 34:35
You've got it. And so there's some situations where a beaver ,we'llcall them a beaver pipe or a beaver deceiver, it won't work. And again, it's predictable. This is not a spot where that pipe will work. And so before investing the resources to try to go that route, it's very important to have somebody help you assess this, the situation. Will it work or not? If a pipe is appropriate, it needs to be designed and installed correctly, and it needs to be maintained. And so those can be effective, but there's a lot that goes into designing and putting them in and maintaining them so they actually will function. Some of the things that farmers can do to minimize flooding and to discourage beavers is to minimize food resources that beavers prefer. What that mostly is, it's deciduous saplings, right? Deciduous trees that are smaller around than, like the size of your wrist, so young regenerating trees and shrubs that are deciduous. That's the ideal food for beavers. And when that's within 100 feet or so of a pond or a slow-moving stream, that's the perfect scenario for a beaver to set up shop. If we don't currently have beavers on the farm and we want to discourage them, then if we're doing any sort of timber harvesting, we want to really be sure that we're not making big canopy openings, like making big group cuts or whatnot, within a few hundred feet of that wetland. So we don't throw a ton of sunlight on the forest floor, create this big flush of of woody vegetation, which is going to pull beavers in. And so there are some things that that can be done. Beavers are a challenge. Working in New Hampshire in the wildlife field for over 25 years, I've never received more calls about beavers than I have in the last two years. I think it's a combination of more beavers on our landscape, maybe being forced into a smaller amount of habitat in response to development. And I think it's also in response to the flashy amount of water that we have. So when we have rain events, there's more water. And so when the beavers are in there, they're responding to that. And so beavers can be a challenge. We're seeing beavers coming into areas where perhaps they haven't been in recent history. But again, if it's got flowing water in it, it's going to have a beaver checking it out periodically, and so again, we need to, we need to be aware of that.
Cole LeTourneau 36:51
I've been getting a lot more beaver calls the past few years as well. I think a lot of that too, as far as Fish and Game is concerned with [how] managing wildlife populations goes and the way that we go about doing that, trapper permits has gone through the floor. No one's trapping anymore. So when we look at these fur-bearing animals like beavers and fox and stuff like that, their populations are not being managed anymore. So what ends up happening is we end up in these situations like we're talking about right now, where we're either relying on nuisance work in order to reduce these populations, remove issues and stuff like that, or, in some states where certain activities been have been banned, such as black bears or harvest or cougar harvest, stuff like that, and the state ends up having to step in in order to manage those populations. We talk about the states having to be the ones to go in and actually remove these individuals from the habitat, rather than using a trapper or someone who's going to put these individuals to use when they've been taken. So I think there's a lot of that too, where we just don't have the population management that we used to have, especially with beavers and other fur bearers.
Rebecca Dube 38:01
Wow, that's really interesting. So if you do want someone to come onto your property to help to hunt or trap some of the wildlife there, what is some of the best practices for that? Some farmers don't have time to hunt during specific seasons, and those tend to coincide with busy production periods. How can a farmer work with hunters to manage depredation and wildlife pressure on their property?
Cole LeTourneau 38:26
Yeah, so it's a great question. Fish and Game actually has a program called Operation Land Share. If you're a farmer, or just a large landowner or something like that in the state and you want to be able to work with hunters and trappers and stuff like that on your property. People who sign up for this program will provide them with signage for their property. You can post your property, you know, around your buildings, around your cattle, or your whatever it is that you want them to stay out of and be mindful is there. We'll provide you with signs where you maybe want them to park or this that the other thing. And in doing that, number one, we leave land open, because New Hampshire is an open land use state. That's a huge thing for us. We want to make sure that we're maintaining not just public lands, but open private lands in the state, because a lot of our property in New Hampshire is privately owned. So that's a huge thing for us at Fish and Game, we want to make sure lands are staying open and trying to work with landowners in order to do that. As part of that program, you'll probably end up getting to meet one of us, because we come around to meet with our Operation Land Shares, and end up having a little bit more face-to-face time with issues regarding hunting and stuff like that. I would wager a bet that most farmers in New Hampshire know at least someone that hunts. It's a pretty popular sport up here in the Northeast. So even if you've never allowed anyone on your property before, maybe just starting with the people who are close to you that you maybe trust to do things the right way. But to go back to our depredation program a little bit too, if these farmers want to be eligible for some of these programs, they require that you allow public hunting access. The reason why is because that takes care of a lot of the problems that you're already having through the population management aspect of hunting. So things like the depredation program, for instance, we require that in those qualifications, that you have a history of damage, you record preventative measures and that you have public hunting access. So just to be eligible to even have us provide you with permits to take additional individuals off of your farm, you need to already be allowing people to do that during the open seasons, to do so. Because otherwise we're just, we're up against a wall trying to fight a flood that is not being controlled otherwise.
Kendall Kunelius 40:50
So on that note, thinking about our family farm in Connecticut: we have hay rides, and that's one of our main enterprises during the fall, during deer season. And part of our hayride track goes down through the woods. So one of the questions that I would have as a farmer is to say, okay, I would like to have a hunter on my land. I want to know who they are. I Want to make sure they're properly permitted. But how do I ensure that my agritourism activities, or the dollars that I'm depending on from those activities aren't in jeopardy, or I'm not going to be running into a liability issue where people might see someone in orange walking through the woods and they disagree with that, or they feel frightened. Because, I mean, hunters are very responsible, but accidents do happen. And I think that's why we've titled this episode working with wildlife, because, like you were saying, Matt, the word is holistic. It's a whole ecosystem that we're working within. I want to make sure you have time to respond to that, Matt, so go for it.
Matt Tarr 41:48
Yeah. So I just want to - The scenario that you just described is a perfect example of understanding the system, right? The farmer understanding the entire system and how wildlife are responding to that. A lot of the depredation that we might be talking about here would be from deer. So if you have crops in one part of your property that are being damaged by deer, they probably aren't spending all day in those crops. The deer are probably spending their time in other parts of the property. But if part of your farming operation is regularly leading trips out into your woods. Guess what? The deer are going to respond to that, and they're not going to come out during the daytime. Your farm activities are basically discouraging the deer from coming out during the day. And guess when they're going to come out? They're going to come out at night. So understanding that may be very helpful. If you're really suffering severe damage to a crop as a result of deer, and that's the thing that's like, really hitting your bottom line. Then you might think carefully about where you do some of these other daytime recreational activities, which the deer are going to respond to, and they might totally avoid your property during the daytime, when hunters could be legally taking those deer. So by maybe understanding where the deer are likely to be during the daytime, are there other areas of the property that we can maybe, during this time where deer are really an issue, maybe avoid with some of these other activities that are putting people out in the middle of that habitat during the day? That might be one approach.
More nighttime hayrides!
Kendall Kunelius 43:20
We actually, okay, but we did though. A long time ago we did the haunted hayrides. This was like 20 years ago, so I guess my follow up question to that too - Again, being a business person, my brain goes, gee, I want in writing evidence that says I'm only allowing this person to hunt on my property for the purpose of depredation between these hours, so that I can also give myself some liability protection against accidents. Or to say yes, I am doing agritourism-type activities, but I am managing that risk of interaction or accident by saying this is my plan and and that's how the hunter or the people I'm I'm agreeing to let hunt on that property for the purpose of that; how we can make sure we're working together to have a beneficial type relationship.
Cole LeTourneau 44:04
So some of that's going to come down to your depredation permits. So if what we're talking about is hunting through depredation, then those permits are going to have hours thatyou're going to be allowed to hunt. So some of those depredation permits may allow for night hunting of deer during certain times of the year, which may help you out if you happen to be having those daytime tours and stuff like that, and it's pushing deer out on your fields or whatever at night. But you may be restricted. Depredation wise, you're going to be restricted to daytime only. The other thing too is depredation is going to require that that animal be taken in the area and 100 feet outside of where that damage is occurring. So if you have a specific corn field that is getting hammered, and that's where you've gotten the depredation permit for, that's the place the hunter has to be. He cannot be anywhere else on the property through depredation. And a lot of times those depredation permits take place outside of the hunting season, because we want to encourage you to have hunters on your property anyway. But a lot of it really just comes down to communication with those individuals. They want to be able to be allowed to be on your property. Farms are a highly sought-after place for for hunters to go, and they're highly productive as far as hunting is concerned. And there's there's just a lot of wildlife there. They want to be there. More than likely, they are going to be more than willing to accept most of the terms that you're going to give them. If you say, hey, look, I have these tours going on from 10am to eight o'clock at night. They're not going to want to be there anyway, because they don't want to be, they don't want to be looking at these crowds. They don't want to be dealing with people and noises and this, that and the other thing, because they know that it's going to be driving the deer off. They're not going to be wanting to be there while that's going on. They might want to be on the other piece of your property where you're not giving those tours and where the deer have been forced out and moved on to. That's where they're going to go. They're not going to be hanging out around your tour unless your property is so small that they don't have an option, in which case, they're just not going to hunt probably during those times. And if you have a hunter who's giving you that kind of a hard time, then just don't allow him to hunt on your property. If he's fighting you about I want to be on your land all day, whenever I want to be, because I think that that's when the deer are going to be here. It's your property at the end of the day. So you have the right to say, hey, this is my property, and this is where I want you to be. I have a piece of property that I'm allowed to hunt on that is a farm. He lets me hunt on one side of the road. And during turkey season, all the turkeys are on the other side of the road! And I sit there all day calling to them, praying that they're going to come across a road and come out of his cornfield. But, you know, that's just the way that it goes. That's why we call it hunting. It's not grocery shopping, you know.
Oh, I like that phrase. That's interesting. We are in this bigger ecosystem. There's a thought here to, you know, how are we also being fair to the animals that we're working around and working with? And what you were saying, Cole about, you know, how much is it also the responsibility of the landowner, whether they're farming or not, to recognize that they have a responsibility to the wildlife that they have there too? So I don't know. I mean, I guess it's kind of like a toss up discussion question between the two of you, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about what things do farmers or landowners not think about in terms of managing their wildlife? Do they have a responsibility to that wildlife to also think about what they're doing and their impacts on that habitat?
Yeah, I'll lead off, Matt, if you don't mind. So in the US, I mentioned the North American Model of Conservation before. What that model did was it gave the wildlife that the people own. Everyone in the US has equal rights to every individual wildlife that's on the on the land. It gave that to the state to hold in trust for the public and to manage that. With that being said though, you still own that wildlife. Whatever it is that happens to a deer or a bear- If they disappear, everyone in the US has lost that individual or lost a species, if we're talking about extinction. So it really does,it benefits not only us as humans to have that wildlife around, because we all live here, and they do great things for our environments; but it benefits the overall system for landowners to care and manage the wildlife. Because what it comes down to - I'm sure Matt can talk about carrying capacity far more educated than I can when it when we start talking about habitats and ecosystems, but everyone's property is a habitat, and each and every property has a carrying capacity for every species that's on that property. So if we're not managing that, then that habitat that you have on your land is not healthy, and therefore the wildlife is either A, not going to be there, B, it's going to be there in unhealthy ways. So we're going to have on over-population of carrying capacity. There's not going to be enough food and stuff like that. It just makes everything else work together and a system much better, especially when we have a state that's as fragmented as it is. So it is absolutely on our landowners to help manage those populations in the wildlife and care about what's there as well as everyone else.
Matt Tarr 49:21
Yeah, there's all sorts of reasons why folks are in New Hampshire, but I think probably a common reason is that we like the rural character. And you know, what's rural to me, might not be rural to you. But the idea is we're in this - we're living and we're doing these activities within a, still a pretty natural system, right? And I think that's one of the reason why many of us own land and work with land here in New Hampshire, is because we like the setting within which we are doing it. And so the vast majority of wildlife that are on farms aren't causing problems. They aren't causing the issues that we're talking about. They aren't depredating. They aren't causing damage, you know? So farms are incredibly rich places from a habitat perspective. I work with farmers all over the state who are interested in enhancing wildlife habitat on their properties. Again, there's very predictable things that we do on farms that we know are going to result in some challenges, but the vast majority of things that we do on our farm don't. And many of our farms greatly enhance habitat diversity across our landscape. So again, here in New Hampshire, we're predominantly forested, and so if it weren't for farmers, we wouldn't have hay fields. Hay fields are not a natural component of the New Hampshire landscape. It's because people are doing farming that we have hay fields and that we have old shrubby fields, and that we have field edges. All of those areas are super attractive and productive for cover in food resources from everything from bees to moose and everything in between. So across the New Hampshire landscape, farms are incredibly valuable. We work with farmers all the time; we want to enhance pollinator habitat. Who want to see the deer. But when we're doing deer habitat management, we're doing it away from the farm crop. Many of our farmers have larger properties that aren't just fields, you know, it includes woodland and so again, taking a holistic approach to that farm is a really good step to figure out, okay, how does the farm fit into the surrounding landscape? So again, when we're working with wildlife habitat, we're providing recommendations for what can we do here to enhance habitat? It's doing that in the context of what's around you. So again, the vast majority of our wildlife species aren't just using your farm. They're using a variety of habitats in the landscape. And so they come to your farm for certain things, and they go to the neighbors for other things, and they might go across town for other things, depending on the species. And so managing holistically, thinking like, how do we fit in the system? How does my property compare to the neighboring properties? It's a really good approach when we're trying to fit the farm into that landscape and fit the farming practices into that landscape. Encouraging certain wildlife that can be beneficial on the farm, while also maybe discouraging critters that we know are going to be causing some headaches moving forward.
Kendall Kunelius 52:13
I think that's a whole other podcast topic. That's number two for this episode! But another thing that I feel like farmers don't talk about, or maybe just don't really understand, is the idea of timber harvesting and land management for wildlife habitat. So my husband previously was in private forestry, and did a lot of work with large landowners on restoration of cottontail rabbit habitat, right? Because things grew back up, and I guess they like brush cover, that kind of thing. And farmers, the idea is, well why would you put in a two-acre clear cut that's slashing and burning kind of thing? That's not good land management, but it is good for habitat regeneration. So I think there's an opportunity for farmers to also interact more with foresters and loggers and land management companies who can help them utilize their land to create pockets of habitat that then gives the wildlife somewhere else to go. And I think that's what you were saying, Matt, is think more of that holistic cycle, but also understand how you have options to manage your land to release that wildlife pressure from the really good looking corn fields or pumpkin patches or what have you.
Matt Tarr 53:24
Sure. And so a great first step for any landowners is to call Cooperative Extension, right?
Kendall Kunelius 53:29
Oh, I love that plug!
Matt Tarr 53:32
So I work in the Natural Resources Program, Forestry and Wildlife Program at Cooperative Extension. We have county Extension foresters in most of our counties here in New Hampshire. Our county foresters and myself, we're available to meet with landowners free of charge to come out and help you on your land; to help you identify what you currently have on your land, and what are things that you can do. And if somebody says, Boy, I want to maybe develop a management plan for my forest, we can then put you in contact with licensed professionals who can help you with that. And so, you know, managing land is incredibly complex, especially on a property where we have a forest and then we have a commercial ag operation, right? There's a lot of very complimentary things that we can do there. And so, you know, I know a little bit about the Ag stuff, at least from a habitat perspective, but when it comes down to the farming business and whatnot, that's out of my specialty. And so it's very typical for us, if I come to visit a property, I'm always calling the county forester to come with me. And if we have a property where we have an Ag operation, we'll also call in one of our Ag specialists from Cooperative Extension. And so the idea is we're here as a resource because there's no one right answer to any of this. And so figuring out what makes sense for your property comes down to, what are you trying to do, and what can your land realistically accomplish? And trying to do it in a manner that is going to be effective for you, avoiding known, very predictable issues, and maybe providing some - there's a lot of unknowns that are in there too. But again, having this holistic plan that comes at it from a variety of angles, I think, is really critical, especially if you're in a business. If you are a business owner and you have a bottom line that's very, very tight, making good decisions is so critically important for having a successful and enjoyable operation. So please don't hesitate to contact Cooperative Extension. If we aren't the ones to help you, usually we can get you in contact with folks that can.
Kendall Kunelius 55:31
I was just gonna say, yeah, that's why we have folks like Cole on speed dial, totally. But you know what I mean?
Cole LeTourneau 55:39
I think back off of him too, a little bit. Just to discuss real quick, as New Hampshire continues to grow, we see farms that are selling off properties and stuff like that. Those are getting developed and whatnot. Fish and Game does buy properties. We do do easements and stuff like that. And if a farmer is looking to maybe offload some property that he farms on or something like that, he doesn't really want to lose it, but he just can't afford the taxes or something. There are options where we might come in, take a property from you and then allow an easement for you to continue to have agriculture on that property. We have a ton of properties that we lease out or have easements with that allow farmers to come and farm on those. So we do have some working programs as well that may be of interest to your listeners. I would encourage you to go on to the Fish and Game website, look at those, call our wildlife division or our Lands Management Division and have those conversations with them as well. Because we have a lot of really great options as far as trying to not develop land and keep those habitats that are very crucial to our state wildlife.
Rebecca Dube 56:52
We'll put that contact information in our show notes.
Kendall Kunelius 56:55
Cole, you mentioned the USDA Wildlife Services earlier in the episode. Could you just give us just another quick little snippet about who they are and maybe how to contact them?
Cole LeTourneau 57:04
USDA Wildlife Services is a federal agency (the USDA), and we partner with them in order to help with these damage control programs and nuisance wildlife issues. They do a lot of work for us with our bear issues. They do a lot of work for people as far as providing some deterrent-type stuff. And I think I've actually got their phone number, if you'd give me one second, I can find that.
Kendall Kunelius 57:31
Wait, so like we joked about having people on speed dial, but you actually, you actually have someone on speed dial!
Cole LeTourneau 57:37
I actually have them on speed dial. I can't tell you how many people that I send their way. They are a fantastic agency. We work really closely together with them, so I can't say enough about the work that they do, but their their phone number over at their office is 603-223-6832. And they're worth having conversations with as well. If you're having wildlife issues.
Kendall Kunelius 58:04
This is awesome information. Thank you guys, so very much. Love that we've already got another three podcast episodes to continue this conversation after this! But yeah, I really appreciate your time, your information. Cole, especially being able to cite those details and laws. I think the key that we're always seeking to do with Extension is just helping people access good information, fact-based information and education. So I really appreciate you taking the time to kind of parse those out for us and helping us understand just where we can find that information, but also it's good for people to know that it exists.
Cole LeTourneau 58:40
Yeah. And as far as for your viewers, if you're looking to find that those specific rules and regulations that I was talking about for bear damage and damage control and all that, if you were to go to our website, we do have some links to the current state RSAs and administrative rules. So those rules and laws that I talked about are under like RSA 207, if you were to dig into there, there's a section for wildlife damage. Not sure what the exact chapter is in there, off the top of my head, but you can find those in there. And then under our FIS, it's 304 I believe, is our wildlife damage administrative rules, and that talks all about the applications. What does and doesn't qualify for type of crops and stuff like that, because we do have some crop types that do not qualify for depredation stuff. So that would be important for your listeners to be informed on as well. So take a look at those. If you're interested in these programs, it's good to know anyway, just for your own information, having farms and stuff like that.
Matt Tarr 59:39
And if folks are interested in getting in contact with their county Extension forester, probably the easiest way to do that is just to go to NH woods.org, NH woods.org. And once that opens up, there's a button right there that you can contact your county forester. If you go through your forester, then your forester can get in contact with me, and we can come out and take a visit together.
Kendall Kunelius 1:00:02
So to summarize the pretty awesome conversation that we just had, we recognize there's a lot of information in here. But one specific key point that we wanted to highlight was understanding when it's important to be contacting your CO (county officer), especially when it involves something around the use of a firearm or a depredation permit. So Cole, I wanted to toss it back to you to just clarify for us, when do we know that we need to contact the CO about that topic?
Cole LeTourneau 1:00:26
Yeah thanks Kendall, I appreciate that. So in general, I would say contacting your local game warden and getting to know us is really to your benefit, regardless of what it is you have going on anyway. Even if you don't have anything that in particular that you need to talk about, even just to know who it is, get their contact information. Because we really are, at the end of the day, we are the experts and a lot of things surrounding the issues that you're going to be having on your properties, especially surrounding hunting potential trespasses, and as we've been talking about today, depredation. There's a lot of rules and regulations around depredation. And quite frankly, with that being said, if we're going to be putting down an animal, which is our absolute last resort, but if that's the course that we need to take, depending on the species and stuff like that, you do need to potentially report that to us within, I think it's 12 hours. So I would always recommend that if you're having wildlife issues, get in touch with your local CO. Have those conversations, because you may be legal to discharge a firearm and eliminate an issue that you're having at a particular time. However, the local CO, he knows his area, he knows the surrounding area, probably around where it is that you're going to be discharging. And it may not be safe, although legal to do so, and there's a ton of other options out there for eliminating nuisance wildlife issues and trying to mitigate those that we can maybe point you in a different direction and something that's maybe a little more proactive and potentially safer, depending on what it is that, you know, everything surrounding those circumstances. But regardless, always reach out to your local CO. We work for you. We love getting to know our constituents, and we can't do this job without getting to know our landowners. Always reach out to us. We love getting to know who we're working for.
Rebecca Dube 1:02:08
Yes, and thank you so much, Matt and Cole, for all your information.
Kendall Kunelius 1:02:12
And as always, you can find us: our emails are in the show notes. Please feel free to ask us any questions, give us episode ideas, feedback, comments (a five star review is always appreciated!). But yeah, let us know what other episodes you want to hear on the podcast.
Rebecca Dube 1:02:29
And we'll be talking to all of you again on the next episode of Shared Soil.
Kendall Kunelius 1:02:41
Shared Soil is a production of University of New Hampshire Cooperative Extension, an equal opportunity educator and employer. Views expressed on this podcast are not necessarily those of the university, its trustees or its volunteers. Inclusion or exclusion of commercial products in this podcast does not imply endorsement. The University of New Hampshire, US Department of Agriculture and New Hampshire counties cooperate to provide extension programming in the Granite State. Learn more@extension.unh.edu
Transcribed by http://otter.ai
